tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post8047473003786154056..comments2023-10-28T13:57:14.667+01:00Comments on Councillor David Clifford - Your voice on Rushmoor: The Tumble Down Dick LatestUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-25349393939447905402013-04-08T18:43:16.720+01:002013-04-08T18:43:16.720+01:00The Tumbledown Dick is not the only pub that meets...The Tumbledown Dick is not the only pub that meets the criteria and is not listed. What of The Ship Inn and The Queen Hotel (now derelict and boarded up)?<br /><br />What too of the shops in Wellington Street either side of Lidl?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-58743442525318058032013-04-08T18:40:03.960+01:002013-04-08T18:40:03.960+01:00The All Party Parliamentary pub group has written ...The All Party Parliamentary pub group has written to the Council asking why no pub protection policy in place, as required by national planning policy.<br /><br />Please publish the response.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-64357155595301441232013-03-16T12:23:27.635+00:002013-03-16T12:23:27.635+00:00David, that is very good news that the Tumbledown ...David, that is very good news that the Tumbledown is being considered for the Local List and I very much hope the Council review the matter and all the evidence clearly, especially in light of their approval for an ACV. We trust you will keep us informed. <br />Many thanks<br />Fran Beauchamp<br />Chair Friends of the Tumbledown Dick<br />fran@friendsofthetumbledowndick.org.ukAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-60797766597622643692013-03-15T20:36:15.340+00:002013-03-15T20:36:15.340+00:00Well done David, pleased you have asked for The Tu...Well done David, pleased you have asked for <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/save-the-tumbledown-dick/" rel="nofollow">The Tumbledown Dick</a> to be listed, but there can be no excuse for it not to already be listed as it meets the criteria for listing and if it meets the criteria it has to be listed. This has been known by the council for some months.<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/buildings-of-local-historical-importance-in-aldershot-and-farnborough/" rel="nofollow">Buildings of Local Historical Importance in Aldershot and Farnborough</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://friendsofthetumbledowndick.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/FTTD-Heritage-Assessment-report-v2.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Tumbledown Dick Heritage Report</a><br /><br />Please ensure it is well publicised when and where this is to be discussed. We do not want any back room secret deals.<br /><br />Next we want a pub protection policy of the calibre of that in Cambridge, which has already saved several pubs. Why not download, change a few words, and adopt locally?<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/last-orders-how-councils-can-protect-local-pubs-from-closure/" rel="nofollow">Last orders? How councils can protect local pubs from closure</a><br /><br />- <a href="https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/protection-of-public-houses" rel="nofollow">Cambridge pub protection policy</a><br /><br />And next we want an apology and correction for the lies that were told in response to the questions you asked on behalf of the local community.<br /><br />The good news is, this is now getting national publicity, an Early Day Motion (EDM 1171)has been filed in the Commons. Has Gerald Howarth MP signed? If not, why not?<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/mcdonalds-criticised-by-mps-for-targeting-pubs-in-the-search-for-new-sites/" rel="nofollow">McDonald’s criticised by MPs for targeting pubs in the search for new sites</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/1171" rel="nofollow">Early Day Motion 1171 - McDonald's and Public Houses</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-56803333012058608412013-03-15T19:00:44.549+00:002013-03-15T19:00:44.549+00:00Well done David, pleased you have asked for The Tu...Well done David, pleased you have asked for <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2012/11/18/save-the-tumbledown-dick/" rel="nofollow">The Tumbledown Dick</a> to be listed, but there can be no excuse for it not to already be listed as it meets the criteria for listing and if it meet the criteria it has to be listed. This has been known by the council for some months.<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/buildings-of-local-historical-importance-in-aldershot-and-farnborough/" rel="nofollow">Buildings of Local Historical Importance in Aldershot and Farnborough</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://friendsofthetumbledowndick.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/FTTD-Heritage-Assessment-report-v2.pdf" rel="nofollow">The Tumbledown Dick Heritage Report</a><br /><br />Please ensure it is well publicised when this is to be discussed. We do not want any back room secret deals.<br /><br />Next we want a pub protection policy of the calibre of that in Cambridge, which has already saved several pubs. Why not download, change a few words, and adopt locally?<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/01/26/last-orders-how-councils-can-protect-local-pubs-from-closure/" rel="nofollow">Last orders? How councils can protect local pubs from closure</a><br /><br />- <a href="https://www.cambridge.gov.uk/protection-of-public-houses" rel="nofollow">Cambridge pub protection policy</a><br /><br />And next we want an apology and correction for the lies that were told in response to the questions you asked on behalf of the local community.<br /><br />The good news is, this is now getting national publicity, an Early Day Motion has been filed in the Commons. Has Gerald Howarth MP signed? If not, why not?<br /><br />- <a href="http://keithpp.wordpress.com/2013/03/15/mcdonalds-criticised-by-mps-for-targeting-pubs-in-the-search-for-new-sites/" rel="nofollow">McDonald’s criticised by MPs for targeting pubs in the search for new sites</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/1171" rel="nofollow">Early day motion 1171 - McDonald's and Public Houses</a><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-1224727142343465522013-03-11T13:45:00.791+00:002013-03-11T13:45:00.791+00:00Today I formally asked Planning to review the Tumb...Today I formally asked Planning to review the Tumble Down Dick for inclusion on the Buildings of Local Importance. Like the London Buses, another formal request had also arrived from a member of the public. So we can draw a line under why it wasn't on the list and get down to the real issue of whether it deserves to be on the list or not. I very much look forward to the Cabinets view and decision. <br />David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-83799721690948400072013-03-08T19:47:49.589+00:002013-03-08T19:47:49.589+00:00We are still seeing pathetic excuses.
The Tumble...We are still seeing pathetic excuses. <br /><br />The Tumbledown Dick meets the critera for listing, the evidence is there, the council is aware, and yet it is still not listed.<br /><br />Even the shoddy worthless council report shows it meets the criteria, and the polciy is, unless it has been changed, if the criteria met, must be listed.<br /><br />Nor for that matter is there in place a pub protection policy as required by national planning policy.<br /><br />We can only form the conclusion that both are still lacking to enable the council to force through a McD application for an unwanted junk food drive thru.<br /><br />Come on David, demand it is listed, demand a pub protection policy of the quality of that in Cambridge, and let us see what then happens next.<br /><br />We alo need answers why Paul Taylor spouted a pack of lies fed to him by officials and what action will be taken against those officials.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-29689697569436497662013-03-08T12:37:10.818+00:002013-03-08T12:37:10.818+00:00Stop Press - Approval given, I'll be mailing y...Stop Press - Approval given, I'll be mailing you a screencap of printed and then scanned email shortly..Rob Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-59734497986704728472013-03-08T12:35:08.952+00:002013-03-08T12:35:08.952+00:00David
I'm taking advice on release of the ori...David<br /><br />I'm taking advice on release of the original, raw data to you. Needless to say I am quite confident that it will provide the reassurance that you need.<br /><br />For reference, the email I am referring to show that Barbara was surprised (in Nov 2012) that the TDD was not in the list, and in fact surprised that TFS had seemingly been sidestepped in the conclusion of the process as well. The reply back from RBC was along the lines of 'the consultation happened, TFS attended, end of story', which isn't really the answer she was seeking.<br /><br />This is markedly different from the publicised TFS stance now, and I am told that the email itself is referred to as misunderstood or that it did not even happen. I'll let you interpret it and make your own conclusions.<br /><br />I do have access to all the raw data and note (to your credit) that you have been involved in several conversations over the years about the situation the TDD found itself in - although I also note that you were clearly saying TDD was a Hampshire treasure in communications, something you later stated the reverse of and caused me to correct you on this blog.<br /><br />Please do not dismiss me as another conspiracy nut here. I'm not making accusations of x-files style deception here. I unfortunately spend a lot of my time embroiled in office politics and have also worked in the public sector, so have a good understanding of email threads and the like - what I see in the information available is indications of 'following process so it must be ok', failure to research the subject at hand fully and a degree of naivety when dealing with the private sector, especially large and powerful property developers. <br /><br />Most of this can be forgiven, but unfortunately it has helped the grave situation we find ourselves in now develop, and stands to lose the town another piece of already scarce heritage. It isn't enough to use the words 'cock up' as a form of excuse (words of a councillor on the FB page recently) when the result is loss of something that can never be returned.<br /><br />You do appear to understand the situation and our frustrations - but perhaps time to delve deeper into the facts?<br /><br />I have checked and an application was certainly in progress. I'll let you know when I find out more.Rob Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-71576497247013921722013-03-08T11:03:51.269+00:002013-03-08T11:03:51.269+00:00Hi Rob,
I think we are in the realms of conspirac...Hi Rob,<br /><br />I think we are in the realms of conspiracy theory here. The facts sadly are pretty boring. <br /><br />What happened *before* is very simple. Forum Heritage Services was asked to work with our officers to compile a list of buildings of local importance. This list became the draft SPD. <br /><br />Reasons why the TDD was not added have been rehearsed tirelessly. However, if it is so important to add it, I cannot understand why we have not yet had a formal request to add it. (As far as I am aware) <br /><br />This is a live list, where buildings can be added and taken away as agreed by locally elected representatives. Simple really<br /><br />I do not accept what you say about the FOI evidence. I would like to see that - as I think it either does not exist or someone is exaggerating what it says. <br />David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-14742048921989183702013-03-08T10:11:01.821+00:002013-03-08T10:11:01.821+00:00Sorry David, that is woefully inadequate:
1) The ...Sorry David, that is woefully inadequate:<br /><br />1) The consultation document details what happened *after* the initial list was produced. What I was requesting is detail of how that initial list was arrived at by the consultants brought in to compile it. There is FOI evidence that TFS were informed that the TDD would be on the final list, but it never made it.<br /><br />We want to know what really happened.Rob Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-35950545025888340882013-03-08T09:27:52.177+00:002013-03-08T09:27:52.177+00:00Hi Rob,
I thought the link given and the related ...Hi Rob,<br /><br />I thought the link given and the related report at http://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=8113&p=0 was pretty comprehensive. <br /><br />For more detail: The advisory report went to Cabinet 13th March 2012, item 6 see http://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=8064&p=0, and Cabinet agreed to the list. <br /><br /><br />Hope this helps. David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-61097225691087531522013-03-07T17:35:40.875+00:002013-03-07T17:35:40.875+00:00Hello again David
You kindly offered to ask about...Hello again David<br /><br />You kindly offered to ask about obtaining more documentation from the original local listing process last week (the documents available fall far short of revealing anything about the advisory report and the decision making process)<br /><br />Any luck?Rob Stevensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-22317797678384987672013-03-07T08:53:49.645+00:002013-03-07T08:53:49.645+00:00Dear Anonymous,
Yes, I understood they are not bo...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />Yes, I understood they are not books. Reading these days includes the Google encyclopedia....<br /><br />Thank you tho, for the clarification.David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-467187068840527112013-03-06T22:27:43.317+00:002013-03-06T22:27:43.317+00:00Sorry if not clear, not books, organisations.
- N...Sorry if not clear, not books, organisations.<br /><br />- <a href="http://www.neweconomics.org/" rel="nofollow">New Economics Foundation</a><br /><br />- <a href="http://www.neweconomics.org/programmes/connected-economies" rel="nofollow">NEF -Local Economies</a><br /><br />- <a rel="nofollow">Transition Town Totnes</a><br /><br />Regeneration can be achieved, but it is not achieved by bringing in developers.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-77017272665603990572013-03-05T12:19:01.739+00:002013-03-05T12:19:01.739+00:00Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for the additional read...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />Thank you for the additional reading, and clarification. I have a very keen interest in regeneration of local businesses.So will give the books a look up.<br /><br />Thank you for the kind remarks about the dissertation. You are clearly well informed. All finished and a distinction to boot. <br /><br />I know - I was shocked too. Perhaps the Doctorate should have a Town centre theme.....David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-59035372673689563412013-03-04T16:36:53.028+00:002013-03-04T16:36:53.028+00:00I would suggest do a little research!
18 pubs a w...I would suggest do a little research!<br /><br />18 pubs a week are closing. Pubs are not closing because "uncommercial or not supported, or neglected", they are closing because greedy pubcos, zombie companies that can barely meet interest payments, are jacking up rents to pub landlords, selling off pubs for redevelopment.<br /><br />The Tumbledown Dick meets the criteria for a local listing. We are still waiting for it to be listed. It is not listed because the council wishes to see it destroyed.<br /><br />The council is only too happy to see local businesses destroyed. The trashing of Farnborough town centre, trashing of The Arcade in Aldershot, eyesore Westgate in Aldershot, parking meters in North Camp ...<br /><br />Of local businesses destroyed in The Arcade, planners said they could go elsewhere!<br /><br />If council is not into cultural cleansing of our heritage, why has so much been lost, why was the original Arcade demolished, why are Victorian buildings (if not older) earmarked for demolition in Wellingston Street in Aldershot, why has the council no policies in place to protect The Tumbledown Dick, why no local listing, why no pub protection policy ...?<br /><br />Agreed, consultation is good, just a pity we never see any.<br /><br />AS you lack understanding of how local economies work, the importance of recycling money within local economies, then I suggest you read the excellent work by New Economics Foundation and Transition Town Totnes (who helped kick Costa out of Totnes).<br /><br />Hopefully this clarifies. And no, not overstating case.<br /><br />Good luck with dissertation!<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-29214236421612506552013-03-02T18:02:45.891+00:002013-03-02T18:02:45.891+00:00Dear Anonymous,
I think you have misunderstood so...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />I think you have misunderstood some issues not everyone or local people.<br /><br />1. Pubs close that are uncommercial or not supported, or neglected. With the TDD we have a bit of each I would suggest.<br /><br />2. It is on a historic site, and we will wait to see if English Heritage agree that it should have some form of listing following a review of their decision not to recommend a listing.<br /><br />3. I think you are exaggerating to make a point, but I do not accept that our Council is 'happy' to see local business destroyed. Being involved in a local business myself I have to declare an interest if such a policy were in place.<br /><br />4. Likewise being a keen family historian and fan of local historian Jo Gosney I also do not accept the Council is into historical or cultural extermination.<br /><br />5. Consultation is good, and can always be better. There is clearly going to be huge interest in the next stage of consultation when the planning application for MCDonald's is submitted. I agree there is room for improvement, but would not accept it is as bad as some would like to make out.<br /><br />6. Local economies is a complex one. How they work is a challenge, and everyone can see that with internet business increasing as fast as some high street shops are closing, we need to rethink the role of town centres and be much more imaginative. One thing is for sure - we are in a dynamic new world of commerce, where companies that cannot change and respond to consumers will perish. I would be very interested in innovative ideas to stimulate growth a development of local trade with as little public money as possible.<br /><br />Must get back to work! I am suppose to be finishing our year end. But hope that clarifies where I think you have over stated your case.<br /><br />David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-49062888284633885602013-03-02T17:03:39.284+00:002013-03-02T17:03:39.284+00:00What issues have people not understood?
We have a...What issues have people not understood?<br /><br />We have a pub that has for some years stood empty. We have a pub that McD wish to destroy for an unwanted junk food outlet, with knock on costs in health. We have a council that is dong nothing to protect the site, no local listing, no pub protection policy in place. A council that is happy to see local businesses destroyed, that is happy to see heritage destroyed, that has no idea what consultation means, that lacks any understanding of how local economies work ....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-8637349951955854772013-03-01T17:36:48.071+00:002013-03-01T17:36:48.071+00:00Dear Anonymous,
You are welcome to attend our war...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />You are welcome to attend our ward surgery tomorrow between 10am and 12 noon at the Tilly Shilling (where we meet regularly with local people and discuss this with me in person. You have clearly misunderstood a number of issues and it may be better to discuss them in person.David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-14364414421172924822013-03-01T17:19:22.048+00:002013-03-01T17:19:22.048+00:00Meeting held with McDd´s, but none with local peop...Meeting held with McDd´s, but none with local people to hear what they feel about the site and its future.<br /><br />Says it all does it not? <br /><br />Convenient, no notes taken. This would not happen with Civil Service, why such low standards Rushmoor?<br /><br />Consulation is engagment with the local community, taking on board and acting upon. This does not happen. If it did, we would not be where we are now.<br /><br />The Council is well aware at the anger and disbelief at no listing for The Tumbledown Dick. It is a very simple matter to add to the list and issue a press release it has been done. We are waiting, we are tired of pathetic excuses for non-listing.<br /><br />Telling people to fill out a form is to completely miss the point!<br /><br />It is not only The Tumbledown Dick. What about the Ship Inn? How many more non-listings are there?<br /><br />Those best placed to decide what is best for the local community, is the local community, not the council, and certainly not developers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-15555854942448508842013-03-01T11:54:31.643+00:002013-03-01T11:54:31.643+00:00Dear Rob et al,
A copy of the consultation docume...Dear Rob et al,<br /><br />A copy of the consultation document on the Buildings of Local Importance SPD can be found on the Council’s website at<br />http://www.rushmoor.gov.uk/article/4118/Buildings-of-local-importance-supplementary-planning-document . It is the final document in the list of 3 shown on this web page.<br />The main formal public consultation on this ran for 5 weeks instead of the minimum statutory 4 weeks due to the holiday period (12 December 2011 to 16 January 2012) and was publicised in the local papers. As a result we get get a number of recommendations and representations from members of the public. About half a dozen from what I can see, which suggests the message was getting out there, and as I said, these sorts of consultations get little attention until planning applications start appearing.<br /><br />The public consultation on the Farnborough Prospectus document (which included reference to refurbishment or redevelopment of the Tumbledown Dick) took place from 31 January to 2 March 2012, and this included an exhibition in Princes Mead from 31 January to 4 February 2012. This was extremely well publicised in the press. The exhibition in Princes Mead included a floor mat which stimulated a lot of interest.<br /><br />Again to reinforce the point I have made earlier. If you want a building added to the list, it can be done now - just submit a proposal - it will be evaluated.<br /><br />Finally, I want to make it clear there will be a further consultation when and if a planning application is submitted to Rushmoor by McDonald's. In addition to this those who want to speak against or in favour of the application will have the opportunity to do so, and directly address the Development Control Committee (Planning Committee) immediately before they make a public decision on the application. <br /><br />So this site is going to get the maximum possible discussion and debate possible before any decision is taken.<br /><br />I will be working this weekend, so please be patient with replies. I will try and keep up to date, but may have to catch up Monday. I wish you all a happy weekend either campaigning or relaxing or empathy from me if you are working. <br /><br /><br />David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-29953280760066762013-02-28T21:47:46.025+00:002013-02-28T21:47:46.025+00:00Claire,
A fair point,and one I will raise with th...Claire,<br /><br />A fair point,and one I will raise with the other points made.Common sense sometimes out smarts Hi Tech.<br /><br />It is shameful that the press is noticeable by its absence at many important meetings, and do not cover as well as it could some stories. A simple question - how many truly Farnborough stories in the Farnborough News these days? as a percentage of the paper - very little.David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-70014163669680371542013-02-28T20:54:13.854+00:002013-02-28T20:54:13.854+00:00Surely RBC would be able to get one of the local p...Surely RBC would be able to get one of the local papers to print a more down to earth notice of a consultation, a full page on something the local council needs to draw attention to with no political jargon, just something simple that people would notice and make note of?<br />I am aware it is perhaps not the most high tech of solutions but I feel it could be a good one but it might be a good place to start.Claire Marshallnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11056358.post-67454078653605023742013-02-28T18:14:51.682+00:002013-02-28T18:14:51.682+00:00Now to the meeting with McDonald's.
This was ...Now to the meeting with McDonald's.<br /><br />This was done at ward Councillors request to find out exactly what McDonalds interest in the site was. <br /><br />The meeting was held in the members room at Rushmoor Borough Council. All three ward councillors were there along with Keith Holland Rushmoor's Head of Planning to ensure no rules etc were broken. The three people representing McDonald's I do not recall but I believe they are involved in their PR and planning team. It was an informal meeting with no notes taken, and we discussed some ideas they were putting together for the site. <br /><br />The ward councillors raised the issue of local importance, landmark, historic value, and the expectation that any historic value identified would be preserved. <br /><br />Ironically, we expressed the desire that a comprehensive consultation should take place as soon as any application was made. <br /><br />No planning views were expressed by my fellow councillors who are on the Development Control Committee, and will be considering any application that may be submitted.<br /><br />The meeting lasted about an hour as I recall. Following the meeting a number of things were clear. McDonald's were serious about developing the site. McDonalds understood that this was a building of interest and that any historical building value discovered should be preserved. Before any application was submitted we wanted independent consultants to evaluate the property before any further decay.David Cliffordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14043470241898096184noreply@blogger.com